Curse

Sep 27, 2007, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archaic

I miswrote that. Anyways, ANet has told you they can't and won't do it. On grounds of PvE balance. So stop making pointless repeat threads, and find something better to do on the forums.

Get your facts straight before opening your trap. Gaile has repeatedly stated the reason they won't implement 7 heroes is because they feel it will destroy social interaction. It had NOTHING to do with balance.

And how can 7 heroes imbalance PVE any more than consumables already do? Now those are far more overpowered than any full hero team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archaic

They are not doing this. I implore a moderator to come out from where-ever they hide and close this topic. Further discussion by people who obviously didn't get the idea when ANet said ''no'', don't really need to keep spamming and talking, when ANet has said NO.

Who the f-- are you? The King of England? If you don't like people discussing the topic then stay out of it. Otherwise you're just trolling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archaic

It is all about balance, btw, because 7 heroes is wayyyyy stronger than 8 people. I'm sorry, but lrn2play.

Funny how you're telling people to "lrn2play" yet you spout such garbage as this. 8 decent human players are far better than any full hero A.I. team on any day. Maybe YOU should "lrn2play" so you dont suck more than an A.I. team.

Sep 27, 2007, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Oh and I love how some trollers try to sabatoge a thread that they don't like by trolling and getting others riled up and getting the thread off track. Why not just ban the freaking trolls instead of closing the thread?

dsnesnintendo · Sep 27, 2007, 01:42 AM // 01:42

THis arguement will go on forever
if you dont want 7 heros only use four(ok)
if you want 7 heros i dont see the harm
I leave you with one picture of advice

zwei2stein · Sep 27, 2007, 01:06 PM // 13:06

There is only thing to hate about heroes/wrong with them:

Missions and quests forcing you take one, even if you would like full human group. That lead to fact you HAD to play with heroes to train them for that. That is one and only occasion when heroes directly kill pugs and pugability.

Luckily, anet learned and eotn missions no longer make you use certain heroes and quests requiring heroes are somewhat rare.

BlackSephir · Sep 27, 2007, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Jesus Christ, reopened thread!
Revolution on Guru! Nobody's safe!

TabascoSauce · Sep 27, 2007, 03:07 PM // 15:07

7 heroes would be, in the words of Peter Griffin, pretty frickin sweet.

But with the specific mention of buddy gaming by Strain in his GC speech ( http://www.guildwars.com/events/trad...7/gcspeech.php ) I think that they're not gonna do it.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

ChaoticCoyote · Sep 27, 2007, 03:57 PM // 15:57

(The following is a revision of a post I started on GWO, where 78+% of the people polled requested full hero parties.)

From the Official Wiki:

Quote:

I've answered this before, but in a nutshell, the Hero design is such that they are more powerful than henchmen. The design team does not want to create a situation where players are encouraged by the Heroes' very design to build parties with Heroes only, foregoing the social interaction that is such a wonderful and desirable element of the game. In other words, Guild Wars is not primarily designed to be a single-player game, but instead is built to (gently) encourage playing with other people. You're absolutely free to do otherwise, and we know that many do. But we won't build mechanics into the game that almost encourage people to solo it. --Gaile 19:12, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

(Retrieved from "http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Talk:Hero")

Many, many of us have posted in many threads on many forums about this topic. I'll be very direct in beating this dead horse to its fullest:

1) All the encouragement in the world won't magically generate players in empty outposts. Try doing Eternal Grove or Dunes of Despair on Hard Mode with henchmen or PuGs.

2) Guilds are NOT always an option for everyone. If anything, saying we need to leave our current friends and family to join a different guild DESTROYS the social atmosphere of the game.

3) In spite of the above, I have tried to find a HM Guild. One was a scam to get people to farm Kurzick points for an alliance; another required people to be on every night at specific times (I have a life and family).

4) It is a waste of time and resources to equip 25 heroes when only a handful will ever see use.

5) Allowing full hero parties provides a whole new level of strategic and tactical depth to the game, by allowing us to build teams, ala old-style computer RPGs.

6) Few things are worse than a half-measure. On one hand, ANet gives us heroes and henchmen so we *can* solo, and then they gimp them (bad henchmen skill bars, 3-hero limit) to "encourage" us to be social. This is, quite simply, silly. Either eliminate heroes and henchmen entirely, or let us use them to their full potential.

7) PEOPLE DO NOT PLAY SOLO BECAUSE OF HEROES. Sorry to use caps, but Gaile's argument in this case COMPLETELY IGNORES what people have said in several forums. People play solo for a variety of reasons, including frustration with PuGs, unusual or chaotic schedules, and the enjoyment of building teams.

8) Allowing more than 3 heroes does not break the interface. The game ALREADY ALLOWS solo players to use more than 3 heroes, through access to a second account. Heroes beyond the first 3 can be treated as henchmen for control purposes -- problem solved.

9) Allowing more heroes per player PROMOTES Strain's much-vaunted "buddy gaming", by allowing someone with a complete set of equipped heroes to play with another person whose heroes may not be equipped or skilled.

I PuGged my way to Protector titles on all three campaigns with two characters; I spend a lot of time in the more unsual outposts helping people with quests and such. That won't change with the introduction of full heroes; however, without full hero groups, I'm likely to leave the game permanently now that I've finished GW:EN. And if I'm playing WoW or LotRO or something else, I'm not being social in GW or buying GW2.

Isileth · Sep 27, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Yeah Chaotic really hits the main points of why Anets reasoning behind this is flawed. I only wish they would actually respond in regards to the actual reaons people want 7 heroes.

Im sure there are others like me who have noticed that now in multiple threads discussions and suggestions of this nature are popping up. So hopefully they will notice enough to actually respond and then from there who knows

Bryant Again · Sep 27, 2007, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Points I agree largely with, Coyote, especially this one:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

7) PEOPLE DO NOT PLAY SOLO BECAUSE OF HEROES. Sorry to use caps, but Gaile's argument in this case COMPLETELY IGNORES what people have said in several forums. People play solo for a variety of reasons, including frustration with PuGs, unusual or chaotic schedules, and the enjoyment of building teams.

And to respond to the Gaile post in general:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

...foregoing the social interaction that is such a wonderful and desirable element of the game.

If the social interaction was "so wonderful", you'd see me pugging more often. Sadly, that is not the case. I can't even begin to count how many horrid and awful experiences I've had with people in Guild Wars, and that's the game as a whole, not just in PUGs.

The number of good ones I can only count on one hand.

zwei2stein · Sep 27, 2007, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Well, Chaotic kinda wins this thread, there is little to add to what he posted and nothing to disagree with.

Vinraith · Sep 27, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Yup, I agreed with Coyote on GWO and I agree with him here. Generally speaking I'm willing to give Anet the benefit of the doubt on most anything, and most of the time I agree with their decisions, but on this point I just can't see where they're coming from. Most everything they've ever said on this subject is pretty readily refuted. About the only thing they've got that would actually be a reason not to do it is "it would require a major overhaul of the interface and game design" but to be honest I don't see why that'd be the case. Still, since we don't have access to the code that would at least be something it'd be hard to shoot down.

nugzta · Sep 27, 2007, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Great post ChaoticCoyote, like I have stated previously there are too many problems with PuG, not necessarily because of PuG. There are many other factors involved; people mindset, real life, time availability, playstyle, definition of having fun, etc are different for each individual.

Jetdoc · Sep 27, 2007, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Well, Chaotic kinda wins this thread, there is little to add to what he posted and nothing to disagree with.

I've disputed several of these items on GWOnline (especially the one regarding "PEOPLE DO NOT PLAY SOLO BECAUSE OF HEROES"), and really don't want to rehash all of that here as well. Feel free to read my posts there and bring up any relevant items here for further debate.

By the way, I chuckle at statements like the one made above.

Loviatar · Sep 27, 2007, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

Since there's no way to check what silent minority/majority thinks (that's why they're silent, not 'vocal') AN should stick to what vocal majority/minority says.

We have GWO forums with 70%+ for 7 heroes, if you have any other forum that's against 7 heroes- please do share.

If suddenly AN would allow 7 heroes and vocal majority would wake up and said "what the hell, I don't want that" then f them for being silent, yes? That's why forums exist, to know what people think and from what I've seen majority here and on GWO wants 7 heroes.
Maybe the rest doesn't want but who knows? Or cares? They're silent- their problem.

hypocrite

you yell majority should have your way.

if the majority turns out to be opposed to what you want

in your very own words

*then f them for being silent*

BlackSephir · Sep 27, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Another enlightened.
Explain, how is allowing people to choose telling them to have my own way?

Quote:

if the majority turns out to be opposed to what you want

Check GWO poll and stop this silly bulls**t champ

Thunder79 · Sep 27, 2007, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

hypocrite

you yell majority should have your way.

if the majority turns out to be opposed to what you want

in your very own words

*then f them for being silent*

Forums are like elections...if you don't speak up then don't complain when the person you don't like gets elected.

It's all about contributing your opinion. In this case it's posting your opinion on 7 hero groups...in elections it's you voting for your candidate.

The ONLY majority that counts is whoever makes their voice heard...if you don't care enough to do that...then why should we care what you think?

Changes should be considered based on the people who are vocal about the issue. If people have a problem with the change after it is made...they should speak up about it. If they choose not to speak up about it...then why should we care what they think?

The only things I'll add to Coyote's post:
1. full coordinated guild groups unbalance the game more than anything...and those are currently possible. 7 Heroes wouldn't be any more unbalancing than a full guild group...and in reality isn't any better than a duo group with 6 heroes.
2. The majority of PUGs are not about socializing as Gaile would like to think. No the majority are all about getting the job done. You screw up in a PUG and you get verbally torn a new one. You have to deal with people whose intentions you have no idea about....whose skill-level you have no idea about. It is not about having fun.

Perfect example: Couple nights ago I PUGed Nundu Bay because I was having difficulty doing it with 3 Heroes/4 henchmen as a Warrior (I usually play ranged classes). I joined a group going for master's. I think only one other person in the group knew how to do the mission, but they didn't assert leadership over the group. I had to do it even though I was the last person to join the group. Turns out one of the people in the group was leeching and didn't really want to contribute at all to the group. They would stay behind everyone as we fought...even though they were a dervish. We experienced several near wipes, with a few directly related to the one leecher bringing Melonni in aggressive mode. The Ranger we had in the group was our puller...but was using a shortbow to pull. I had to step up and pull out my Nevermore Flatbow to pull for the group AS A WARRIOR (I usually play ranger and always keep a flatbow with me just in case I need it). The experience was filled with people pinging where to go...people not following those directions even when everyone agreed on where to go. People scribbled on the radar (fortunately no genitalia this time). Overall the experience was pretty much the same as most PUG experiences I've had. Not fun...all about getting the job done. Fortunately, despite the problems, we did get the job done and completed it for Masters. This was in Normal mode.

Btw....GWG Mods...stay out (unless flaming happens...but don't close the thread). Gaile said they weren't considering making the change...then never asked the issue to be dropped...and even if they did...you shouldn't be obeying every order they throw at you. You are supposedly independent....act like it. Yes this is directed at GWG mode Faer...you should have never closed the thread in the suggestions forum. (and yes I already sent Faer a pm about it)

Loviatar · Sep 27, 2007, 07:48 PM // 19:48

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder79

The ONLY majority that counts is whoever makes their voice heard...if you don't care enough to do that...then why should we care what you think?

no it is the game designers opinion that counts

Quote:

Changes should be considered based on the people who are vocal about the issue. If people have a problem with the change after it is made...they should speak up about it. If they choose not to speak up about it...then why should we care what they think?

the vocal minority opposed the rune trader and guaranteed rune salvage as it would destroy the rune farming economy.

farmers bitched casual players cheered

Quote:

Btw....GWG Mods...stay out (unless flaming happens...but don't close the thread). Gaile said they weren't considering making the change...then never asked the issue to be dropped...and even if they did...you shouldn't be obeying every order they throw at you. You are supposedly independent....act like it. Yes this is directed at GWG mode Faer...you should have never closed the thread in the suggestions forum. (and yes I already sent Faer a pm about it)

and you are suddenly running this site giving orders?

ban time

Isileth · Sep 27, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Can we please keep this as a discussion of the originial topic? There is no need for flaming or anything like that.

You are welcome to disagree. Thats what this thread is for. But please, dont just say no or insult people. State why you think its a bad idea, then those that think it is a good idea will post why they disagree with your points. You can then come back and counter that or let someone else do it for you.

This is how forums work, when people drop to childishness it ruins it for everyone. This is a discussion on 7 heroes. If you dont want to discuss it you dont have to post, if you dont want to read it you dont have to.

This was a very good discussion into a few people started to derail it, lets try and go back to what it was.

Thunder79 · Sep 28, 2007, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

no it is the game designers opinion that counts

and they base that opinion of current game dynamics, their own opinions and the opinions of the community...the only opinions in the community that count are the ones who voice their opinion in some way. Fan Forums are one way...emails to the devs are another...no longer playing is another...keeping quiet and continue playing is not a way to voice your opinion.

Quote:

the vocal minority opposed the rune trader and guaranteed rune salvage as it would destroy the rune farming economy.
farmers bitched casual players cheered

well then the casual players voiced their opinion after the fact...but they still voiced it.

Quote:

and you are suddenly running this site giving orders?

No I am not and they merely suggestions based on past closed threads (closed for no reason other than the moderator's opinion on 7 heroes).

We have clearly stated reasons for the 7 hero change...the reasons why it won't happen have been given and we have refuted them soundly. The only obstacle is to convince the devs that this is the direction people want to go...keep beating the "dead horse" till it wakes up like favor did.

The only groups this change would really affect are solo players (positive) and PUGS (negative)....the difference is...PUGs rely on players who don't want to PUG to from groups...it is not a positive social experience...so there's no reason to promote it. People who want to PUG can PUG all they want. People who do not want to PUG should not be forced to.

Loviatar · Sep 28, 2007, 02:29 AM // 02:29

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder79

and they base that opinion of current game dynamics, their own opinions and the opinions of the community...the only opinions in the community that count are the ones who voice their opinion in some way. Fan Forums are one way...emails to the devs are another.

wrong according to a person who actually knows

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Strain

Most of your players will never read your website, never visit fansites, and never participate in forum discussions.

Players who participate in fansites and send six-page emails to your community team are experts at your game

it's important to realize that they do not represent the average player. The vast majority of your players are not digging into every detail of every spell or creating lists of animations so that they can react when they see the basilisk twitch its nose.

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder79

B]keeping quiet and continue playing is not a way to voice your opinion.[/B]

actually it is the best way because they keep logs to see who and how many are playing any aspect of the game.

by playing they see that people like it